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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:54 am 
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Thats a really good catch Hakeem. I haven't seen that particular rules language before. If he really works that way he gets bumped up a notch, in my book.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:16 pm 
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Wow, nice catch. So you can actually play him and disable their removal before they can cast it. That's huge!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:29 pm 
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I mentioned about removing removal from your enemy by playing him. I guess I could have been more clear. Yeah, it beats instant removal.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:20 pm 
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Has your lack of artifact/enchantment removal hurt you at all?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:34 pm 
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No. What is there really to fear? I can kill whatever creatures they would use artifacts on. (which are rare anyway)

And considering that all the best enchantments are few and far between, I don't feel it merrits takeing up a couple spots for something that is rarely going to cost you the game anyway.

Think about it. The best enchantments in the game, are 2of.. The odds of even seeing them consistently isn't great. The odds of them then costing you the game are lower. So it all comes down to understanding that once in a while someone may get that nut draw at the right time. But that odd exists pretty much always anyway!

I aimed the deck to be as consistent as possible across the board. Enchantments can't be prevalent enough currently for me to feel it important to add cards that ONLY remove them or artifacts. Since those aren't what is consistently winning games. Currently what CONSISTENTLY wins games right now is creatures.

Kill/stall their creatures, and fly over their heads with big fliers or decent sized evasive creatures is a really consistent strategy. Always is.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:39 am 
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How has starfish been, it seems under powered. I think this is where I would want telling time


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:44 am 
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Monk1410 wrote:
How has starfish been, it seems under powered. I think this is where I would want telling time



Sigiled Starfish is the best card in the game. :cool:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:06 am 
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Monk1410 wrote:
How has starfish been, it seems under powered. I think this is where I would want telling time


It is great. Firstly it is an additional chance to get an early defender on to the board (the real reason I run it over telling time), and it has the obvious upside of scrying.

Having early creatures is really important in this meta. There are lots of aggro/cheap creature enchant decks running around. These cards that allow for multiple scry effects are pretty awesome.

While the meta is slower than last year, aggro is still a threat that must be considered.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:43 pm 
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I think I prefer using Perilous Myr and Jorubai Murk Lurker as aggro road blocks first. I'm also leaning towards Telling Time since I think an immediate dig is the more useful effect. It's quicker in helping early game set up, and I'd probably rather top deck one in the later game over a Starfish too.

Of course a few of you all have had actual time to test cards over the rest of us. I'm just curious how many people just jumped straight to the Starfish without giving much thought to Telling Time since the latter card hasn't seen much discussion around the boards I feel.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:26 pm 
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While I can see the argument. From my play time experience (which this deck has a lot of), aggro is enough of a threat that I want the extra two chances to have an early body there personally. Generally this decks biggest threat is getting hit too hard too early. I can see the argument, but myr and murklurk don't always show up. And there have been plenty of times I was happy to be able to soak early damage with the starfish.

What I like about the starfish is that it's pseudo-draw but attached to a body. If things slowed down a tad more, I would swap the two for telling time in a heart-beat. But I don't see that happening until atleast a month or two, giving a lot more people the chance to get the cards needed to be able to build a solid midrange/control option.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:37 pm 
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Well, I would assume you're filling out with some Reave Souls in your list as well. So now between some X number of Myrs and Reaves, with Murk Lurkers and maybe Fleshbag Marauders in a list, that's beginning to be quite the plays for turns 2 and 3. On top of that, a lot of these cards help actually enforce trades against the opposing creatures.

Now, I don't want to sound entirely against Scryfish, because I'll agree the stats are somewhat respectable for early blocking and you're at least getting some kind of incremental effect tacked on. I've always felt like Scry 2 was the closest approximation to a pseudo-draw though, and usually if you bottomed at least 1 card. So you can sort of see how I feel Sigiled Starfish is slow to start generating any real value from scrys. Getting an immediate effect can be kind of important and Telling Time's view 3 is largely beneficial at many stages of the game because of it. Sometimes that quick dig is required to find a land so you don't lag in mana resources to desperately seeking out removal like Languish to get ahead.

Generally, cantrips like Telling Time tend to see some sort of play and it's what we have to play with in our format, even if Telling Time is on the lower end of power level compared to similar effects that have been printed. Sigiled Starfish never really made waves in other formats despite some early release hype, but it's not exactly competing with its block's direct comparison of Omenspeaker here either. All this talk still makes me curious on actual test evidence for Telling Time though. Responses almost seem to suggest it hasn't been tested extensively yet. Besides doing a versus comparison, maybe there's some value in utilizing both the starfish and Telling Time in the same deck together?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:55 pm 
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Brodo one thing I will note about telling time is that it is an instant. Bestest's list is jam packed with sorceries, IIRC the only instant he has is cruel revival. I think T.T.'s value rises a lot in a draw go style deck. Even on turn 2 leaving mana open for the last possible minute to cast either twin bolt or telling time is powerful. I posted a theorycraft creatureless draw go list in the Izzet thread.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:20 pm 
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True, it's definitely best in a more draw-go playstyle, but I think it's still decent as a way to smooth out early draws when you don't have better plays or try and find cards you need now without feeling like you need to take advantage of its instant speed quality.

If Twinbolt/red is super awesome in the coming environment, I'll look more into Izzet as it provides a few more overall instants. The one thing I'm slightly disappointed with control in general at the moment is the lack of something like a super draw to help refuel late game. Seems control has to revolve around continuous incremental plays throughout the game and black seems to offer a few stronger ways to achieve this type of control.

EDIT: Question. Is Telling Time an uncommon in this format? I know MM2015 downgraded it for its own format, but I thought I saw it on stream maxed at 3 copies and I'm seeing some conflicted evidence between our tables listing it as common and what I guess are speculative lists putting in 4 copies.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:07 am 
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Black and Blue
(Aggro)

4x Thornbow Archer
4x Faerie Miscreant

2x Despoiler of Souls
2x Harbinger of the Tides
4x Shambling Ghoul
4x Welkin Tern
2x Reave Soul

1x Liliana, Heretical Healer
3x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Frost Lynx
1x Scrapskin Drake

1x Erebos's Titan
4x Accursed Spirit

Land
2x Drowned Catacomb
11x Swamp
11x Island

Manacurve
8-14-9-5

Summary: Very linear beat down deck. Our main goal is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible. The overall quality of our cards isn’t very good, but, they don’t need to be. Turn them sideways and prey they don’t have Languish on turn 4.

Liliana, Heretical Healer +1 is awesome in this deck. By the time she flips we will have played our entire hand which means (usually) only the opponent will be losing card advantage from it. She should also be easily flipped as your opponent is basically forced to remove your cheap threats or die to them.

Removal is limited. We don’t want to play too much as it will dilute the deck of threats. Reave Soul helps get rid of a blocker on 3 or 4 and Fleshbag Marauder is great for helping keep the opponents side of the field empty for Erebos's Titan. He can also force Liliana to flip if your opponent is doing nothing.

The worst part of this particular deck is the lack of red. Without access to red this aggro deck has no ‘reach’ to finish the game. We’re really relying on evasive threats (flying/intimidate) to get through and end the game quickly. I think this deck has potential because nobody will be expecting it. A lot of the time, when you’re racing another aggro deck, such as Boros for example, you’ll win just because you have better abilities like Frost Lynx and Harbinger of the Tides which will give you big advances in tempo.

Overall aggro is still a very viable option. People just need to approach it differently sometimes.

edit: -4 Coral Merfolk +4 Shambling Ghoul

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Last edited by Rattleclaw_mystic on Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:26 am 
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brodo wrote:
True, it's definitely best in a more draw-go playstyle, but I think it's still decent as a way to smooth out early draws when you don't have better plays or try and find cards you need now without feeling like you need to take advantage of its instant speed quality.

If Twinbolt/red is super awesome in the coming environment, I'll look more into Izzet as it provides a few more overall instants. The one thing I'm slightly disappointed with control in general at the moment is the lack of something like a super draw to help refuel late game. Seems control has to revolve around continuous incremental plays throughout the game and black seems to offer a few stronger ways to achieve this type of control.

EDIT: Question. Is Telling Time an uncommon in this format? I know MM2015 downgraded it for its own format, but I thought I saw it on stream maxed at 3 copies and I'm seeing some conflicted evidence between our tables listing it as common and what I guess are speculative lists putting in 4 copies.


It is uncommon.

But yeah my decision for starfish is the early body. With the lifeloss from the draw, I want the extra potential to negate early damage. Obviously 2 cards don't make much difference in the greater scale, but for my personal taste and how popular aggro is, I feel I gotta have the body in the slot

Black and Blue
(Aggro)

4x Thornbow Archer
4x Faerie Miscreant

2x Despoiler of Souls
2x Harbinger of the Tides
4x Coral Merfolk
4x Welkin Tern
2x Reave Soul

1x Liliana, Heretical Healer
3x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Frost Lynx
1x Scrapskin Drake

1x Erebos's Titan
4x Accursed Spirit

Land
2x Drowned Catacomb
11x Swamp
11x Island

Manacurve
8-14-9-5

Summary: Very linear beat down deck. Our main goal is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible. The overall quality of our cards isn’t very good, but, they don’t need to be. Turn them sideways and prey they don’t have Languish on turn 4.

Liliana, Heretical Healer +1 is awesome in this deck. By the time she flips we will have played our entire hand which means (usually) only the opponent will be losing card advantage from it. She should also be easily flipped as your opponent is basically forced to remove your cheap threats or die to them.

Removal is limited. We don’t want to play too much as it will dilute the deck of threats. Reave Soul helps get rid of a blocker on 3 or 4 and Fleshbag Marauder is great for helping keep the opponents side of the field empty for Erebos's Titan. He can also force Liliana to flip if your opponent is doing nothing.

The worst part of this particular deck is the lack of red. Without access to red this aggro deck has no ‘reach’ to finish the game. We’re really relying on evasive threats (flying/intimidate) to get through and end the game quickly. I think this deck has potential because nobody will be expecting it. A lot of the time, when you’re racing another aggro deck, such as Boros for example, you’ll win just because you have better abilities like Frost Lynx and Harbinger of the Tides which will give you big advances in tempo.

Overall aggro is still a very viable option. People just need to approach it differently sometimes.


Aggro is definitely very viable still. I think many people who aren't able to play yet are gravely underestimating it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:52 pm 
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Black and Blue
(Aggro)

4x Thornbow Archer
4x Faerie Miscreant

2x Despoiler of Souls
2x Harbinger of the Tides
4x Coral Merfolk
4x Welkin Tern
2x Reave Soul

1x Liliana, Heretical Healer
3x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Frost Lynx
1x Scrapskin Drake

1x Erebos's Titan
4x Accursed Spirit

Land
2x Drowned Catacomb
11x Swamp
11x Island

Manacurve
8-14-9-5

Summary: Very linear beat down deck. Our main goal is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible. The overall quality of our cards isn’t very good, but, they don’t need to be. Turn them sideways and prey they don’t have Languish on turn 4.

Liliana, Heretical Healer +1 is awesome in this deck. By the time she flips we will have played our entire hand which means (usually) only the opponent will be losing card advantage from it. She should also be easily flipped as your opponent is basically forced to remove your cheap threats or die to them.

Removal is limited. We don’t want to play too much as it will dilute the deck of threats. Reave Soul helps get rid of a blocker on 3 or 4 and Fleshbag Marauder is great for helping keep the opponents side of the field empty for Erebos's Titan. He can also force Liliana to flip if your opponent is doing nothing.

The worst part of this particular deck is the lack of red. Without access to red this aggro deck has no ‘reach’ to finish the game. We’re really relying on evasive threats (flying/intimidate) to get through and end the game quickly. I think this deck has potential because nobody will be expecting it. A lot of the time, when you’re racing another aggro deck, such as Boros for example, you’ll win just because you have better abilities like Frost Lynx and Harbinger of the Tides which will give you big advances in tempo.

Overall aggro is still a very viable option. People just need to approach it differently sometimes.


I would replace coral merfolk with shambling ghoul as he is harder for the opponent to trade with, and him coming in tapped is the same as summoning sickness other than if you are on the defense. In which case as an aggro deck you are losing already, but on the plus side he is also a better blocker. The next trade I would do is scrapskin drake and 1 x frost lynx for 2 x priest of the blood rite. This would increase your curve a bit but would give you 2 x creatures for 5 mana and one of them would have evasion.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:07 pm 
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binderato wrote:
...

Overall aggro is still a very viable option. People just need to approach it differently sometimes.


I would replace coral merfolk with shambling ghoul as he is harder for the opponent to trade with, and him coming in tapped is the same as summoning sickness other than if you are on the defense. In which case as an aggro deck you are losing already, but on the plus side he is also a better blocker. The next trade I would do is scrapskin drake and 1 x frost lynx for 2 x priest of the blood rite. This would increase your curve a bit but would give you 2 x creatures for 5 mana and one of them would have evasion.


Hi Binderato,

Thanks for the input.

Yes, looking at it again, Shambling Ghoul does look like a better creature overall. The 3 toughness is a big deal and coming in tapped on turn 2 is usually irrelevant. The only counter-point that could be made is for turn 4+ where coming in untapped could be help as a blocker. But that point you’re probably losing anyway. So I completely agree on that change.

As for the other change, I do not personally like the idea of Priest of the Blood Rite. I get that it is essentially a 7/7 across two bodies with a very small drawback but I’m not sure if it is worth increasing the curve for? Since I can’t really test either build I’m not sure which is best. It seems like I would have to mulligan any hand with Priest of the Blood Rite because of the mana base and how slow the Priest is.

Still, very valid points, if anyone would like to test these changes and give feedback then that would be great!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:26 pm 
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Agree with testing Shambling Ghoul.

I also don't think a 5 drop is out of the realm of playability for an aggressive strategy depending on the format. Plus as a comparative, Priest of the Blood Rite seems like it would get cast more often than Erebos's Titan in a dual colored deck.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:39 am 
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Could a "draw-go" style deck be viable?

1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4x Reave Soul
2x Telling Time
2x Sigiled Starfish

3x Jorubai Murk Lurker
3x Calculated Dismissal
2x Read the Bones

3x Inspiration
4x Bone to Ash
1x Erebos's Titan
2x Languish

2x Priest of the Blood Rite
3x Unholy Hunger

1x Kothophed, Soul Hoarder

1x Alhammarret, High Arbiter

2x Drowned Catacomb
4x Dimir Guildgate
9x Swamp
10x Island

What I like about this build is just how insanely good Languish is in it.
We barely play any cheap creatures and all our finishers survive it.
Perilous Myr could be another decent addition, as it could help finish of 4+ toughness creatures after a Languish.

The lack of cheap instants has me a little worried and if we don't see Languish it's a lot harder to win.
The quality of the counterspells is also pretty poor, and Bone to Ash might just be too slow.

Maybe an iPerson can test it out :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:39 am 
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binderato wrote:
...

Overall aggro is still a very viable option. People just need to approach it differently sometimes.


I would replace coral merfolk with shambling ghoul as he is harder for the opponent to trade with, and him coming in tapped is the same as summoning sickness other than if you are on the defense. In which case as an aggro deck you are losing already, but on the plus side he is also a better blocker. The next trade I would do is scrapskin drake and 1 x frost lynx for 2 x priest of the blood rite. This would increase your curve a bit but would give you 2 x creatures for 5 mana and one of them would have evasion.


Hi Binderato,

Thanks for the input.

Yes, looking at it again, Shambling Ghoul does look like a better creature overall. The 3 toughness is a big deal and coming in tapped on turn 2 is usually irrelevant. The only counter-point that could be made is for turn 4+ where coming in untapped could be help as a blocker. But that point you’re probably losing anyway. So I completely agree on that change.

As for the other change, I do not personally like the idea of Priest of the Blood Rite. I get that it is essentially a 7/7 across two bodies with a very small drawback but I’m not sure if it is worth increasing the curve for? Since I can’t really test either build I’m not sure which is best. It seems like I would have to mulligan any hand with Priest of the Blood Rite because of the mana base and how slow the Priest is.

Still, very valid points, if anyone would like to test these changes and give feedback then that would be great!


Have you thought of running bone splinters instead of reave soul? You have a lot of smaller creatures and for one less mana and sacing a small creature, you get a lot more coverage.

Also, with your win con of evasion, would running a couple of Sigil of Valor be beneficial to you? It would allow you to transition from swarming to swinging with a big flyer if you need to late game. Attach that to a tern when you have 4/5 other creatures out and you suddenly are swinging with a 7/6 flyer while keeping your defense intact late game.


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