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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:54 am 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
I don't think Vicious Hunger is playable outside of monoblack.


I am usually right there with you on your evaluations Hakeem, but this is one where I just have to flat out disagree.

I am with Megabeast on this one.

:b::b: may be annoying, and being Sorcery speed may mean no 2 for 1 potential.

That said, it still successfully answers the majority of the 1-3 cmc creatures that get played in this format. As much as I hate to admit it as well, Lifegain is certainly relevant in this format, even if it is just 2 life (which honestly CAN be the difference between life and death against some fast aggro decks).

My Dimir ETB deck uses it and gets along just fine. It certainly isn't an ideal card, but if you aren't running :r: or :w: then it is most certainly a viable removal option. The rest of the :b: removal suite honestly isn't that great either.

Dead Reckoning is more of a build around card that not all decks want/can afford to run. Ulcerate is fine, but in any deck not looking to be aggressive it often isn't too great (trying to stabilize from a bad board position by doing damage to yourself often isn't ideal). Tribute to Hunger is great when your opponent taps out to play a Pelakka Wurm or something, but is EXTREMELY matchup dependent, it doesn't do much good when your opponent is flooding the board with tokens, or otherwise has something silly like a Visionary or Satyr on the table as well when they cast that big bomb. Flesh to Dust is nice in that it is basically unconditional, but a 5cmc it doesn't really work too great as the early removal most slower decks NEED to survive those early turns (before you have the mana to cast Flesh to Dust). Shadowborn Demon is a thing too, but again, 5cmc for removal doesn't help you much to stop from dieing in those first 4-5 turns. Assassinate requires the creature to be tapped which becomes a problem when dealing with trigger based threats that your opponent is likely to never attack in with and tap if they are smart. Drag Down basically requires you to play at least 3 colors to be decent (and have a good enough mana base to get all 3 early), and even then is still probably only worth it in a 5 color list. Covenant of Blood is flat out 7cmc which is not where you want to be when playing removal (especially single target removal with a damage cap), and to be honest, most :b: decks just aren't going to have enough creatures around to make the Convoke aspect any more than a pipe dream.

The only :b: removal spell that I would consider to be superior to Vicious Hunger in those early turns is potentially Dead Weight.

Dead Weight honestly isn't really THAT much better though. Dead Weight is certainly easier on the mana, and has more utility as a top deck since you can still use it to shrink down a big creature.

Dead Weight still operates at Sorcery speed though. It also is an Enchantment, meaning it doesn't have any synergy with a good number of cards that are run to take advantage of said Instant/Sorcery spells. Dead Weight can't be brought back with Archaeomancer, it doesn't trigger Kiln Fiend or Young Pyromancer or Talrand, Sky Summoner

I don't think Vicious Hunger is great or anything. 10 times out of 10 I would just rather just splash :r: or :w: and have access to better removal.

I will say though that in certain decks that don't have access to those colors there really aren't a ton of other great options. My Dimir ETB deck runs it for this very reason. Against certain decks you really need that removal early. Bounce spells can get you a pretty decent way, but sometimes you just HAVE to have something that gets rid of it permanently. Ulcerate, Dead Weight, and Vicious Hunger really are our only options here in these colors. Not all decks can manage the life loss from Ulcerate though, and some decks run cards like Talrand and Archaeomancer which really don't want us to be devoting spots in our lists to cards that don't have synergy with them.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:19 am 
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I like Vicious Hunger AND Ulcerate in the same deck.. this lets Ulcerate be the super badass combat trick in the deck, while Hunger picks off combo cards and recovers some of that life loss.

Earlier I was playing against a Bant opponent, I Brain Maggot him stealing a Cultivate.. he drops a Rhox War Monk.. he swings with it, Ulcerate takes it to 0/1, War Monk dies to Brain Maggot.. opponent rage quits. Love it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:25 am 
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All well and good boys, but this whole argument presupposes that it's worth running removal at all, under those circumstances, and I'm not so sure. There are a lot of unstated IFs in this discussion.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:28 am 
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I think all decks need some removal.. otherwise we'd all die to T2 Kiln Fiends against all the Izzet people.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:30 am 
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Not for nothing, but sorcery speed removal still dies, or it wastes a good opportunity.

Vapor snag is better removal for kiln fiend, IMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:38 am 
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DJ0045 wrote:
Not for nothing, but sorcery speed removal still dies, or it wastes a good opportunity.

Vapor snag is better removal for kiln fiend, IMO.


Kiln Fiend, yes.

Other early threats that have the potential to just take over games, not so much.

Which is what I was saying earlier about Bounce only being able to take you so far.

Bounce works fine to stall out that Kiln Fiend.

Bounce doesn't work so well to answer Rabblemaster, or Pyromancer, or Talrand, or other cards that just continually poop out value on the cheap unless you answer them right away. The tempo loss doesn't hurt these sorts of things nearly as much because they are basically tailor made to fight the tempo fight. Stalling a Pyromancer or Rabblemaster for a turn really doesn't hurt too many decks that much knowing that when they come out again they are just going to continue to provide you value until you can take over with them.

Bounce works great against decks that like to use combat tricks and auras and big dumb beaters early on. Some creatures don't suffer as much from that tempo hit though, because they are the types of grindy cards that win games just by sitting there on the table (and while bounce removes them from the table, it often isn't a permanent answer).

These are the types of cards that I started running Vicious Hunger to combat, because Bounce just wasn't cutting it. Well, I initially ran Ulcerate, but the deck just couldn't handle the life loss so I made the switch and it has worked decently thus far.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:45 am 
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My issue isn't with your statements, my issue is probably underlying with the decks themselves. I'd have to pick them apart, but I'm guessing I'd find issues. For example, a deck that can't handle the life loss of Ulcerate. That's a pretty shocking statement to me. You just killed a major threat? How can that not be worth 3 life in exchange for the added utility? Why is this deck so slow? That kind of stuff.

That said, it may still be that in some cases you'd be right, and I'd accept it. But, when someone starts advocating really bad cards, I start to question it. If nothing else, why are we even running that deck in the first place?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:33 am 
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It isn't "just" the life loss from ulcerate. We are also packing a full playset of 4 Phyrexian Rager, which often get played and replayed via bounce and undying, and 2 Graveborn Muse. This is in a deck with no real board presence below 3 CMC. It isn't uncommon for me to lose 5+ life in one game in order to draw five cards. That is a good trade, but if you start to stack other life loss on top it can really hurt. The 5 point life difference between ulcerate and vicious hunger represents, potentially, 5 fewer cards drawn from graveborn muse.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:52 am 
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It strikes me that this is a curve issue. I've made plenty of decks that utilize both of those cards and aren't so slow out of the gate as to completely cede the first 3 turns. I'd rather run (just as an example) Tormented Hero, which has the added bonus of applying some early pressure. Or Dead Weight, which costs less and helps with bigger threats than hunger can handle. And now I am talking about the deck on the last page.

Also, as a side note, that deck is incredibly mana hungry, so dead weight makes even more sense to me - you may actually need your removal to be 1 CMC in order to allow you to maximize your mana usage.

But honestly, what you ought to be doing is getting rid of Vicious Hunger and probably Hypnotic Specter (although there may be other options) in favor of Ulcerate and Tribute to Hunger, which are much better together IMO, than a chosen discard and a 2 damage sorcery.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:58 am 
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AND btw, Lilliana's Specter makes absolutely no sense in this deck. Specter is fantastic in tempo decks/decks that aim to get damage in quickly, and decent in full-blown discard decks. It is absolutely misplaced in this build IMO. I don't see how it fits into the deck's plan at all - and I definitely don't see how having a 1BB card could be good for this deck's consistency, and wouldn't play it unless it was really on point for what the deck was trying to do. (This is obviously even more true for a BB removal card, but I'm beating that horse to death.)

Edit: rereading this makes it seem like I'm totally discrediting the deck. Sorry about that. I comes off too strong. The deck is fine, I'd just suggest a few changes to it. And possibly the removal of one or two high CMC cards.

Edit2: on the subject of high CMC cards that probably shouldn't be in the deck, why are you running 2 Rescue From The Underworlds with no plan to put creatures into the graveyard. For that matter, why even Sheoldred (although that one's a lot more understandable, and probably easy to defend). I'd expect Rescue to be dead 9/10 times in this deck. It's hard to guarantee it will be worth it in full blown GY decks.


Last edited by DJ0045 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:03 am 
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The problem with Vicious Hunger is that it costs two mana, has a prohibitive mana cost, and is sorcery speed. I'm sure it's borderline playable in some lists, but you have to be really strapped for options before you choose it IMO.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:50 pm 
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We have had quite a bit of discussion on vicious hunger, but little discussion on the decklist as a whole. What specific changes would ya'all recommend? I don't consider this deck top tier by any means, but it is not an intentionally derpy combo deck either. We are using some of the best combos available to blue and black.

DJ: I think you should make an edit3 to your post since I believe you mean Liliana's and not Hypnotic specter. This deck has 7 discard effects, 7 bounce effect, 3 brain maggots, and 10 additional spells (undying, peel, archaeomancer) to allow the re-use of the foregoing.

Speaking of discard, I am starting to realize the power of the archaeomancer + peel from reality combo. With brain maggot I often get a chance to see a player's hand. Generally, locking someone into playing the same card for a few turns while they try to find land tremendously increases the value of discard. I had two games today against 5 color fat decks where I was able to stretch the game out for ~15 turns with Archaeomancer / peel, while my opponents built up a huge hand of fatties. I would actually consider Monomania here, specifically since the addition of Archaeomancer. Rescue works reasonably well, but I think discard is more important so you can get milage out of dunrova horror and lili's specter.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:54 pm 
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HenWen wrote:
but it is not an intentionally derpy combo deck either.


Hmmmm......


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:42 pm 
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HenWen wrote:
We have had quite a bit of discussion on vicious hunger, but little discussion on the decklist as a whole. What specific changes would ya'all recommend? I don't consider this deck top tier by any means, but it is not an intentionally derpy combo deck either. We are using some of the best combos available to blue and black.

DJ: I think you should make an edit3 to your post since I believe you mean Liliana's and not Hypnotic specter. This deck has 7 discard effects, 7 bounce effect, 3 brain maggots, and 10 additional spells (undying, peel, archaeomancer) to allow the re-use of the foregoing.

Speaking of discard, I am starting to realize the power of the archaeomancer + peel from reality combo. With brain maggot I often get a chance to see a player's hand. Generally, locking someone into playing the same card for a few turns while they try to find land tremendously increases the value of discard. I had two games today against 5 color fat decks where I was able to stretch the game out for ~15 turns with Archaeomancer / peel, while my opponents built up a huge hand of fatties. I would actually consider Monomania here, specifically since the addition of Archaeomancer. Rescue works reasonably well, but I think discard is more important so you can get milage out of dunrova horror and lili's specter.


Fixed...

Are we talking about the same deck? I see 4 Spectres and 3 Maggots is that the 7? If so, I maintain, Spectre is not the right card here.

If the deck is stalling as well as you say it is, then maybe monomania (but I worry that it's not a good enough card), but still not specters. Btw, if you are playing against people that can't figure out how to break your peel combo, find other people to play against, they aren't good enough at mtg to be worth playing against. It's a good trick, and I could see it work a few times, but that's a very soft lock.

Also, gave you some advice earlier. Definitely lose the Rescues. Replace them with something else. Take it or leave it on the removal part.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:07 pm 
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I'm reposting my deck as it was before Henwen's modifications to it, because some cards may look out of place with the changes. I think it's better to explain why they were included originally and what the focus of the deck is.

[manapie 90 -w u b -r -g][/manapie]

Cold Death

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (22 :creature: , 14 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Creature22 cards
■■■
Brain Maggot1/1
■■■■
Frost Lynx2/2
■■■■
Liliana's Specter2/1
■■■■
Phyrexian Rager2/2
Shadowborn Demon5/6
■■■
Dinrova Horror4/4
■■
Rune-Scarred Demon6/6
Sheoldred, Whispering One6/6
Spell14 cards
■■■■
Undying Evil
■■■■
Peel from Reality
■■■■
Think Twice
■■
Rescue from the Underworld
Land24 cards
■■■■
Dimir Guildgate
8
Island
12
Swamp


The main idea I had when creating this deck was using ETB effect creatures for card advantage/control purposes and spells to enable ETB effects again.

Cards like Rescue from the Underworld and Sheoldred, Whispering One mainly serve as extra ETB enablers, reanimation is not the main focus of the deck. You don't need to self-mill for these cards to work as reanimator enablers in the later game. Even without Shadowborn Demon in play, creatures die anyway and against aggressive decks you will have to block and let some of your creatures die to stay alive as long as possible. Opponents will also sometimes try to kill your big threats, Demons and such in the later game. That's where those cards become useful. Rescue can indeed end up as a dead card sometimes and it's definitely not a card I want to draw early on, which is why I only left 2 of them. Still in my experience it turns out to be a dead card in this setup mostly when things are already going so well that I don't even need to use it.

For discard cards I think we already discussed this a few pages ago, but again this isn't what the deck is focused on. There are actually 10 discard cards and not 7 if you count the Dinrova Horrors so with that and the ETB reenabler effects you can actually force your opponent to discard many many cards if you want to. But again discard here works as a control element by limiting the opponent's options while you build card advantage with Think Twice and Phyrexian Rager in the meantime.

Besides the discard element Liliana's Specter is still relevant in this deck as a 2 power flying creature. This deck has many control elements but still contains mainly creatures. Ultimately you can only win with your creatures, so having a 2 power body with evasion is actually useful to start doing the work from turn 3. And slower decks may feel compelled to deal with it at some point. Which is where cards like Undying Evil and later Rescue or Sheoldred find their use.

It's definitely not a top tier deck but I'd recommend to give a try to both versions (my original version and Henwen's revised list) to understand how it should be played because the synergies and the gameplan are not really obvious when you just look at the deck list.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:56 am 
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So here's a new idea from me... basically, keep their hand full, force them to discard. I'm still testing it, so ideas and suggestions are welcome, but I think it's probably pretty good. It's certainly annoying. lol

[manapie 90 -w u b -r -g][/manapie]

Vapor Maggot

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (16 :creature: , 20 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Vapor Snag
■■■■
Void Snare
Cost 9 cards
■■■
Brain Maggot1/1
■■■■
Armillary Sphere
■■■■
Voyage's End
Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Liliana's Specter2/1
■■■■
Mind Rot
Cost 4 cards
■■
Graveborn Muse3/3
■■
Talrand, Sky Summoner2/2
Cost 4 cards
■■
Indulgent Tormentor5/3
■■
Monomania
Cost 3 cards
■■■
Dinrova Horror4/4
Land24 cards
■■■
Arcane Sanctum
■■■
Crumbling Necropolis
■■■
Opulent Palace
7
Island
8
Swamp


Changed to reflect
- 3 Tribute to Hunger
- 1 Sheoldred, Whispering One

+ 4 Mind Rot


Last edited by DJ0045 on Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:23 am 
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I like the look of this deck and it looks like monomania might actually have a place in here. That makes me have to test it. Normally I wouldn't consider armillary sphere in a deck, but this deck has very little going on early and needs to get double black by turn 3 or 4, so I guess it has a place in this deck. Nice work DJ.

Just an aside I used to love playing your 2 headed dragon team decklists in the last dotp. Hands down the best ones I would find were yours.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:55 am 
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I like the look of this deck and it looks like monomania might actually have a place in here. That makes me have to test it. Normally I wouldn't consider armillary sphere in a deck, but this deck has very little going on early and needs to get double black by turn 3 or 4, so I guess it has a place in this deck. Nice work DJ.

Just an aside I used to love playing your 2 headed dragon team decklists in the last dotp. Hands down the best ones I would find were yours.


I should have mentioned: the whole point of this deck was to make monomania into a good card. The deck may still need some work btw, but I was enjoying playing it. It's very controlish.

As for armillary sphere, it's okay in decks that have extreme mana requirements. I put it in, because the thing I hate most in mtg is not being able to play my hand. However, in any deck of mine where you see a colorless mana option, you can always remove and replace. The mana basses are typically balanced correctly, even without it. You will have a slightly less consistent deck, but you will also have a place for 1-4 additional cheap cards.

Also, thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:31 am 
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DJ0045 wrote:
I like the look of this deck and it looks like monomania might actually have a place in here. That makes me have to test it. Normally I wouldn't consider armillary sphere in a deck, but this deck has very little going on early and needs to get double black by turn 3 or 4, so I guess it has a place in this deck. Nice work DJ.

Just an aside I used to love playing your 2 headed dragon team decklists in the last dotp. Hands down the best ones I would find were yours.


I should have mentioned: the whole point of this deck was to make monomania into a good card. The deck may still need some work btw, but I was enjoying playing it. It's very controlish.

As for armillary sphere, it's okay in decks that have extreme mana requirements. I put it in, because the thing I hate most in mtg is not being able to play my hand. However, in any deck of mine where you see a colorless mana option, you can always remove and replace. The mana basses are typically balanced correctly, even without it. You will have a slightly less consistent deck, but you will also have a place for 1-4 additional cheap cards.

Also, thanks!



Armillary Sphere is a card I feel doesn't get the respect it deserves. Most people just see it as a worse Cultivate. To a certain extent, it is, but it also has its own advantages that Cultivate does not provide.

Cultivate is certainly better in that it costs a total of :1: less mana to cast, and also in that is puts that second land directly into play.

Armillary Sphere, on the other hand, doesn't require you to be running :g: to get a decent land fetch effect. The biggest benefit of Armillary Sphere though, at least in my opinion, is the fact that it is an activated permanent. Meaning that once Sphere hits the table, cracking it is done at instant speed.

This is the real advantage of the card as far as I am concerned. Armillary Sphere gives a deck the ability to mana fix, as well as help to consistently hit land drops, without requiring the deck to tap out to do so. This is obviously more important in certain decks, most obviously for ones that are looking to operate at the End Step the majority of the time. For example, in the majority of Control decks I would choose Armillary Sphere over Cultivate (even if I was running :g: to run/cast Cultivate) if I was looking for a fixing/land fetch option. This is because I can play an Armillary Sphere on T2 for example, and still be able to keep mana up on T3/T4/whatever to be able to cast removal/countermagic etc. You can save cracking that Armillary Sphere until your opponents End Step on a turn where you know you can afford to do so.

Much in the same way that a lot of decks use draw spells. Think Twice is a good example of this. You keep mana open on your opponents turn, if they play something worth removing/countering/etc then we do so at the End Step and immediately untap on our turn. If they don't play anything worth removing/countering/etc then we have Think Twice to use at that End Step instead to draw us a card and then immediately untap on our turn.

Armillary Sphere functions much the same way in those sorts of decks, allowing you to run mana fixing/fetch without having to tap out to do so. If the opponent plays something worth removing/countering/etc then we do that on their End Step and immediately untap. If they don't play anything worthwhile, then we crack Armillary Sphere and fetch up 2 lands and immediately untap.

Sorry, I know I went a bit on a tangent, but I feel like this is a card that by and large gets ignored completely due to the existence of Cultivate, which I can understand to an extent, but I don't believe is completely and totally warranted.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:34 am 
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Btw, this deck isn't quite what I intended (tired last night when I was building it)

- 3 Tribute to Hunger
- 1 Sheoldred, Whispering One

+ 4 Mind Rot

It's actually pretty good, IMO. Not top tier in my decks, but it can really screw people up bad.


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