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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:13 pm 
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And I targeted Neo, and he came up as scum to me.

So, unless I am insane which I doubt given that a kill happened, I'm sane and Neo is scum.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Vote: Neo


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:15 pm 
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What is your win condition Dusky? I doubt you're tied to town and scum win cons.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Vote:Neo.
Cuz why not.

Got KoD as town btw.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:45 pm 
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EBTWOP, and wuth that I mean I got a scum result on kod, with clearly shows me I'm insane, therefore kod is town.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:17 pm 
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What is your win condition Dusky? I doubt you're tied to town and scum win cons.

My goals is incompatible with revealing it.

Okay now, I know KoD has been the voice of logic, but I think we have to be careful here.
How do you explain this late hit? And the fact that I got two scum and two town results means sane/insane isn't the only option.
Who did Neo target?

Also, I can't help but notice that supposedly investigating me twice gave KoD the option to basically claim whatever result he wants or needs for this round. :/


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:26 pm 
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I targeted HW and got another scum result. I’m clearly paranoid, and if you all want to listen to KoD and likely give scum th game, go for it.
Otherwise, I’ll dig deeper tomorrow, once back in front of a computer.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Rag: S, S (KoD, HW)(Lynched)
Neo: S, S, S, S (KoD, Rag, Argh, HW)
Dusky: T, blank*, S, T** (KoD, Neo, HW, Argh)(Immune to lynch)
Argh: T, T, T (Neo, Dusky, HW)(Killed)
HW: T, S, S, T (Neo, Rag, HW, KoD)
KoD: T, blank, blank, S (Rag, Dusky, Dusky, Neo)

* - Result revealed a day later.
** - Not given immediately.

-----------------------------

First, let's focus on you Dusky. An answer to your questions first and foremost.

- Regarding Argh's death:
There are two ways to explain Argh's death. The first way, which was my knee jerk reaction, was that you were the cause of his death. This is because of the lack of deaths much earlier in the game, and the possibility that is, in fact, insane scum. I still believe this is the case. Why? Because the second way he died is via a paranoid scum Neo. That is, Neo poisoned Argh. But if that were the case, he would have poisoned not only Argh, but me, Rag, and HW as far as today is concerned. Rag was killed before the next night happened I believe so that never got tested. I am still here though so I must have been protected somehow. Short of Rag being insane scum (which I doubt given HW's results coupled with my own), then the only other explanation is that you were the cause of the protection (since you did target me and you're obviously not town or scum by your own admission). That being said, of the two, this last one is the most complex at explaining the situation whereas the first is simpler. If there is only one scum in the game and it is Neo, then Neo will never reveal a town result, unless it is on himself. And he won't do that. But in any case it explains why I'm still here.

TL;DR: Neo is insane scum, and Dusky is the cause of Argh's death after having targeted Argh.

Side Note: Let's be real here too. HW and I are the only ones that make sense with our results given everything that has been presented. Any other path presents way too many contradictions that can't be explained, unless you jump through a lot of hoops and possibly ignore stuff.

Side side note: This is @HW - If you at all buy into anything Dusky (or Neo to an extent) say, then explain to me where they are getting your attention so I an clearly and accurately refute them with a logic chain. It will be tedious, I won't lie, but it will show that they are lying (or at least present a situation that is way too complicated to be true).


- Regarding your "results":
First and foremost, you didn't list your result when you said you targeted Argh. Your result came after HW and I gave ours.

That being said, you're not town or scum by your own admission. Plus you won't tell us what your win con is. There's no reason to believe that you haven't lied about your results. Not only that, your results, if you maintain them as true, cause clear contradictions within the game short of either some of us being both town and scum (which should play havoc with everyone's results, not just yours unless the sanities work differently for you via ignoring some alignments or generating random ones) or some of us are not truly scum or town (which begs the question why are we even getting town/scum on each other as opposed to blank results like I got on you).

What this boils down to is you, as a nontown/nonscum entity, can't be trusted. Or, as demonstrated above, your results are extremely unreliable. Thus I see no reason to take you seriously in your advice or suggestions (such as the notion that sane/insane are not the only options for you when clearly that plays havoc with the foundation of the sanities).


- This last one ties into your results to a lesser extent and from a different angle, it concerns this quote of yours:

Quote:
Also, I can't help but notice that supposedly investigating me twice gave KoD the option to basically claim whatever result he wants or needs for this round. :/


1. Except for you revealing you had targeted Argh, but not having said his alignment, I am the first person to claim my result on my target today. The situation is somewhat similar to yesterday where you, and everyone else, already knew I had targeted you twice but to no avail.

2. Playing off the above, how exactly do I give myself the flexibility to claim whatever I want for this round when I revealed my result first before anyone? The only reason for me to lie would be if I were scum, and if I were scum, then it would follow that I would be the cause of death for Argh. If that were the case, then I would have had to of killed Argh somehow -- either by poisoning or by simple kill. Since he died last night, it couldn't have been from poisoning so it had to be from a simple kill which means I must be sane; however, Neo, you, and Rag were all alive after I targeted you all. So it can't be that. Maybe I lied about who I targeted the whole time and I targeted Argh earlier in order to get him killed last night via poison. Course if that was the case, who died on the second night from me investigating them? No one, hm.

Or, and this may be a shock, you're wrong with the ideas you are trying to put forth.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There is an issue though with the current situation (for town at least). We essentially have a deadlock with the votes. Neo, by virtue of wanting to live, will make sure there is a tie by voting whoever Dusky votes (unless Dusky votes Neo). However, I can't explain how to get rid of Dusky. She's already shown herself to be immune to lynch, unless all players alive need to vote her. But then that runs into the issue of Neo having to side with town to get rid of Dusky, and then being lynched by the town later. And that's assuming everyone voting Dusky manages to get rid of her.

Since Dusky has the ability to kill (no reason to not assume that), the game is essentially at a point where she can win (if her goal is to kill everyone) or she can win with Neo or whatever. I'm honestly not putting too much thought into the hows and whys with these particular scenarios because it is all dependent on Dusky having the ability to kill (so she can dictate who lives) and survive lynch while also deadlocking the vote to prevent a town victory.

Best case scenario, aside from town winning somehow, would be for the game to draw due to Dusky no longer having the ability to kill. Then we just deadlock vote the entire time, until JD calls it. Worst case scenario, Dusky, pending on win con and a player's perspective, wins with whichever side she wants to. I, honestly, assume her win con is to help scum win given all the interference she's done in the game, but that's just my opinion.


But yeah, I'll fight this out until it is forced to end. So, with that being said, don't let Dusky sway you HW.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Error in previous reporting.

Rag: S, S (KoD, HW)(Lynched)
Neo: S, S, S, S (KoD, Rag, Argh, HW)
Dusky: T, blank*, S, T** (KoD, Neo, HW, Argh)(Immune to lynch)
Argh: T, T, T (Neo, Dusky, HW)(Killed)
HW: T, S, S, S (Neo, Rag, HW, KoD)
KoD: T, blank, blank, S (Rag, Dusky, Dusky, Neo)

* - Result revealed a day later.
** - Not given immediately.


Just because I have nothing better to do:


Scenario where Dusky is being honest about her results


How about if I were scum since that seems to be the direction Dusky is hinting at?

Kod as scum


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:58 am 
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Well, I'm clearly paranoid. But, I'm not seeing a situation where I'm paranoid scum, since there's only been 1 kill. Unless there's another scum (which would have to be insane) and that person managed to protect everyone that I tried to poison.
On N1, that could be Rag or Dusky, since they both targeted KoD on N1. Then, on N2, it would have to be HW, who was the only other to target Rag on N2. Then, N3, I poison Argh, no one else targets him.
If that's true, we should know, cause HW would die tonight, since I targeted him, and no one else did, last night.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:09 am 
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Hi Neo. And no.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:27 am 
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You're not clearly paranoid. Yes, you have all scum results which indicates you could be paranoid; however, you haven't investigated yourself. Given that HW has you pegged as scum (due to being insane himself) and I have you pegged as scum (vs my town result on Rag) I'm either sane or insane as well.

You have one thing right. You're not paranoid scum, otherwise, more than likely, people would have died. I don't actually know how a doctor protects a poisoned target. As in do they prevent the poisoning on the night the person is targeted, or do they prevent the death from the poison trigger. But anyway...

btw N0 is N1 for all intents and purposes. Game started with a night phase for us to get results. So it is: Night 0, Day 1/Night 1, Day 2/Night 2, etc.

Neo as paranoid scum


TL;DR: Long story short, the assumption of you being paranoid scum checks out so long as we explain away my survival as being the cause of insane scum Rag or Unicorn Dusky. Then it falls on you that Argh was poisoned in the appropriate timeframe.

Now there is one problem with you being paranoid scum. Rag can't be scum. This is because of HW's differing results on you and Rag. This means one of you is town, and the other is scum. Clearly if we are assuming you are paranoid scum, then Rag would have to be town. Then the issue arises as to how did I survive you targeting me? Well, perhaps it was Unicorn Dusky's doing. If we assume that Dusky has the power to protect on the night the poison is applied (but not when it would kill), then it would explain how I lived. It would also explain why Dusky didn't protect Argh from you (since she targeted Argh the night he died of the poison).

So there we have it, a valid theory to you being paranoid scum. All we have to do is magically believe that Dusky can protect someone from dying. Course Dusky can confirm this to make it easier on us. However, if Dusky denies any such ability to protect, then you cannot be paranoid scum as there would be no viable way to explain how I survived you targeting me.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:44 am 
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I like that you guys (Neo and Dusky) bring up issues, but don't actively flesh out evidence to backup what you're saying.

@Neo:

You maintain you are town, right? Prove it. You've got the results to work with. I'll even put them in a sblock here for ease of reference.

Results Thus Far


When I ask you to prove it, I want you to work it out. There's no reason you can't backup what you are saying. If that's too much for you, then answer simply who is scum and why.


@Dusky: Same thing as Neo. In your last post you were just beating around the bush. Now as a Unicorn with no bearing on town or scum win con (other than your vote), who do you think is scum and why? And can you prove it?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:56 am 
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If I'm scum, but not paranoid scum (and I've gotten nothing but scum results on people) then who killed Argh? Are you saying that I'm insane, and I've been the one protecting people? If so, I should target myself tonight, right?
Literally the only way that I could have killed Argh is if I'm paranoid, and have been poisoning people, and they are getting protected by someone else who's insane scum. So, knowing that (and I'm open to you disproving it) then there has to be 2 scum.
I'd also like a reason that Dusky got the scum result on me a day later.
If you believe Dusky, then doesn't that prove that both HW and myself are scum, since Dusky got scum results on both of us? Or, it proves that both HW and I are town.
Three people have targeted both HW and I.

Dusky - both of us were scum.
HW - town for me, scum for himself.
Argh - both of us were town.

Dusky can't be paranoid, since both town and scum were results.
Argh has to be naive, unless Dusky, HW and myself are the same alignment.

KoD - you cannot be paranoid or naive.
If you are sane, then Rag is town, and I'm scum, if you are insane, then Rag is scum and I'm town.

Rag - can not be paranoid.
If Rag is sane, then KoD and HW are town. If Ran is insane, then both are scum. Also, Rag can be naive.

Argh - cannot be paranoid.
If Argh is sane, then Dusky, HW and I are town.
If Argh is insane, then the three of us are all scum (unlikely)
So, Argh is most likely naive.

I can't be naive.
If I'm insane, then only I or Dusky can be scum.
If I'm sane, then everyone but Dusky and I are scum.
I'll target myself tonight, and, I fully expect to get a scum result, since i believe I am paranoid.

Sorry for the ramble, been pulled away alot since I started this.

We know that someone killed Argh.
If it was poison, then it had to be me, which does not explain how KoD is still alive, unless Rag or Dusty saved him.
If it was not poison, then it had to be Dusky.

If Dusky is scum, and is able to kill someone that night...
Either I or Rag had to have protected KoD on N0.
Something (and I know not what it could have been) protected me on N1, which also delayed the results by 1 night.
Then, either Argh or HW protected HW on N2.
And Argh died N3.

Now, assuming that I'm scum (and I would have to be insane or paranoid - I dont think anyone can argue against that).


Insane - then I've been protecting people, and somehow, only allowed 1 kill.
KoD is then sane.
Argh is naive.
HW is insane
Rag is insane or paranoid
Dusky is lying, since they cannot be naive or paranoid (2 different results). Can't be insane, unless Argh and KoD are scum, and can't be sane unless HW and I are scum.

@KoD - I dont think I need to prove that I'm town, as you can't prove that I'm not, unless HW is also scum.

I think that Dusky is the key, and we need to figure out the lynch - maybe it requires everyone aside from Dusky?

Vote: Dusky

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:02 am 
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Rag: S, S (KoD, HW)(Lynched)
Neo: S, S, S, S (KoD, Rag, Argh, HW)
Dusky: T, blank*, S, T** (KoD, Neo, HW, Argh)(Immune to lynch)
Argh: T, T, T (Neo, Dusky, HW)(Killed)
HW: T, S, S, T (Neo, Rag, HW, KoD)
KoD: T, blank, blank, S (Rag, Dusky, Dusky, Neo)

* - Result revealed a day later.
** - Not given immediately.

-----------------------------

First, let's focus on you Dusky. An answer to your questions first and foremost.

- Regarding Argh's death:
There are two ways to explain Argh's death. The first way, which was my knee jerk reaction, was that you were the cause of his death. This is because of the lack of deaths much earlier in the game, and the possibility that is, in fact, insane scum. I still believe this is the case. Why? Because the second way he died is via a paranoid scum Neo. That is, Neo poisoned Argh. But if that were the case, he would have poisoned not only Argh, but me, Rag, and HW as far as today is concerned. Rag was killed before the next night happened I believe so that never got tested. I am still here though so I must have been protected somehow. Short of Rag being insane scum (which I doubt given HW's results coupled with my own), then the only other explanation is that you were the cause of the protection (since you did target me and you're obviously not town or scum by your own admission). That being said, of the two, this last one is the most complex at explaining the situation whereas the first is simpler. If there is only one scum in the game and it is Neo, then Neo will never reveal a town result, unless it is on himself. And he won't do that. But in any case it explains why I'm still here.

TL;DR: Neo is insane scum, and Dusky is the cause of Argh's death after having targeted Argh.

KoD, I am confused by this, despite the TL;DR.
If you are suggesting I killed Argh, what is your explanation for my other targets all being alive?

As for the second version, the poison only makes sense if a) protection is possible only if done the night of the hit instead of the death (would make sense flavor wise) and b) if I had a protection role. This is not the case as far as I know, and I am aware of my role (and you do believe I am aware of not being town/scum, and I would have had to be aware of this the whole time, no?).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:08 am 
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Geez.... I am immune to lynching, get a night kill and can protect people? Seriously? :ookay:

Also, HW: Isn't there something you haven't shared?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:18 am 
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That being said, you're not town or scum by your own admission. Plus you won't tell us what your win con is. There's no reason to believe that you haven't lied about your results. Not only that, your results, if you maintain them as true, cause clear contradictions within the game short of either some of us being both town and scum (which should play havoc with everyone's results, not just yours unless the sanities work differently for you via ignoring some alignments or generating random ones) or some of us are not truly scum or town (which begs the question why are we even getting town/scum on each other as opposed to blank results like I got on you).

What this boils down to is you, as a nontown/nonscum entity, can't be trusted. Or, as demonstrated above, your results are extremely unreliable. Thus I see no reason to take you seriously in your advice or suggestions (such as the notion that sane/insane are not the only options for you when clearly that plays havoc with the foundation of the sanities).


And what exactly speaks against playing havoc? Doesn't the fact that you got a random 6th player in the game who you couldn't investigate or lynch suggesting quite strongly that there is an element of chaos here? Why assume everything else is exactly following your logical rules?

On that note... how come you got no result on me while Argh did, during the same night? How would that make sense at all?

Regarding my other comment on that: I was suggesting that it was convenient for you to waste a night investigation on me, because that left you more investigated targets to pick from. It didn't matter whether you claimed first or not this day, as you already knew what you'd have to claim to justify a Neo lynch.


But the main question in all of this is: If KoD isn't scum, why on earth is he still alive?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:46 am 
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Oh boy, let's take this piece by piece.

@Neo



Now for Dusky.

@Dusky


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:54 am 
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Side Note just because:

Quote:
If you are suggesting I killed Argh, what is your explanation for my other targets all being alive?


This quote from Dusky gives me the impression that Dusky is acting like scum here. As in, and I'll try to explain it as best I can, I accused Dusky of being the one to kill Argh. Despite having claimed being a unicorn, Dusky decides to respond with a counter question that focuses on the idea that her targets should also die in that case (which is something only a sane scum is capable of).

This is not really all that important since Dusky has proven being immune to my investigations (twice) as well as immune to lynch. Plus Dusky can't be sane scum, otherwise Dusky would have killed each person she targeted. I just found it mildly entertaining that she, in responding, took a perspective that views herself as having to be an alignment she is not (scum).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:38 pm 
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You know what, that might be how Dusky is able to kill. A failed lynch on her is able to be turned around into a vengeful kill on someone that voted her.


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