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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:26 am 
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But with that out in the open, I may as well talk about what happened already.

At D1/2 I tried to keep a low profile and failing miserably. I was pretty sure I had lost the game already at that point. I started off trying to ally with the Greek, knowing Zinger was a Greek with the same role as me and being worried about HW's role (because I was initially considering fakeclaiming hard).
With Zinger and Squinty being down so early, it kinda threw a wrench in things.

At the end of D2 KoD contacted me with his plan. Thinking it would be funny if I still had a change of winning I accepted of course. When numbers noticed that KoDs crusade was actually working he contacted HW (now solo Greek) and and myself to try another ploy as well. I would just do what I was doing already (keeping in touch with KoD and siding with him) and numbers and HW had calculated that they could throw the lynch towards a Persian. The only thing we had to make sure of, was that KoD would not get a NK.

Note that this plan, for me, worked exactly the same as if I was allied with Persia. After all, I would still side with Persia on everything, but numbers/HW could force ties to switch between Persian/Roman lynches. So I had two win options. The direct one, through Persia, or the elaborate ruse through numbers/HW
Of course, this elaborate plan was foiled when numbers missed the deadline by a minute.

So with Persian now as the main force, I could just sit this ride out now, knowing that I was in good graces with KoD/Jim by actually being thruthful about my role to everyone since D3.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:38 am 
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Why did you make the switch from KoD to me (I guess maybe you wouldn't know?), which would normally have required Neo to be online as well, and effectively made it so you failed?
Why didn't you vote for HW last round, ending the game? Were you afraid of him nailing you back at last minute (also killing himself), or weren't you available to be online at the deadline? It seemed like a pretty natural line of play to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:50 am 
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I'm seriously crying over here.


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:53 am 
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1) The three of us (numbers, HW, me) wanted to have lines with both Romans and Persians. I was of course the Persian contact, but only with KoD. You never saw much in me :P
So for that reason you were voted for first.
Even if it worked, there would still be 2 Persians and 2 Romans, so it was still quite a long shot.

There was talk about me voting against Persians as well at that time, but it would've outed all three of us immediately. I still wanted to win, so held off against it. The deadlines in this game were also usually around 2-3AM local time, so I had no power to attempt a last-minute vote.

2) I contacted HW pretty early already, soon after Squinty was lynched. When we both were alone we already discussed that we had almost 0 chance to win and it would likely become a coin toss on which of the big powers would remain the main one. In case of Roman, I would die. In case of Persian, he would die.
Of course, then numbers came along and brought his idea, but that didn't change our initial conversation. It just gave potential for hilarious shenanigans within the game.
I was also pretty sure that KoD's ability would copy immediately after a lynch, so if Neo was lynched last KoD would die. And I didn't want to do that. So Neo had to die first and HW today.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:55 am 
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I'm seriously crying over here.

When you made that big post last day trying to analyze 2 days ago, I seriously had to bite my lip to not spill the beans right there. Of course I knew why numbers acted the way he did :P

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:55 am 
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You were siding with the romans, so Killing KoD might have made the persians and the romans groups ally, also I proposed to start from you as a compromise to not lynching kod(very good for them, meh for us), or Scarlet(Since after scarlet died I could have probably allied myself back with KoD(not that I wanted a Scarlet lynch)).

Basically I was not expecting kod to kill the player he had all reasons to believe neutral and lynching you wouldn't have lowered scarlet chances of winning.

Also now that I think about it, wouldn't me dying without getting killed mean that KoD ends the game with NEO's role anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:20 pm 
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I dodged a metaphorical bullet last night. Cato made a ruling to me about the role interaction between my role and Neo's. He said he was going to rule that if, today, the game ended in a way that didn't have Carthage destroyed, then I would commit suicide. Initially I was like oh fun.

Then I challenged his ruling based on the wording of my role and the way he stated how the game ends. My role copies abilities until the next lynching. In order for the game to end, two factions must remain. This can only occur after a lynching has occurred, and by the wording of my role, I wouldn't have Neo's role anymore at that point. That's how I challenged it to Cato and he, reluctantly, agreed since it made sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:21 pm 
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I SEE GotL!


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:43 pm 
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@Scar:

Remember our conversation? I'm so glad I got rid of Numbers just in case you tried to stab me in the back somehow.

:V


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:04 pm 
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Yeah. I had to keep feigning ignorance about numbers to you to make sure I would not mess up anywhere. I think I did alright all things considered :P
But the plan was foiled the moment you got the NK, regardless of who you shot. So that you killed numbers didn't really matter anymore at that point :)

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:38 pm 
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If you lynched neo instead of fel we might have been able to mantain the facade by having scarlet announce of being v/la asap, but alas you lynched him before we got to 7 players.

I still think that you lost,kod I got modkilled and neo's role killed you.


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:20 pm 
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@Scar: You did extremely well. I had no inkling of an actual thought that you were trying to backstab me. Given that, and the way Mown likes to act, I'm sure that had Numbers still lived you guys ***maybe*** could have convinced Mown into stabbing me in the back to help his pals the Romans out without outing your elegant ploy.

Look at it this way. If I used my Night kill on Neo yesterday rather than Numbers, then the living players would be 6 with Numbers still alive. The three of you could then beat Mown, Jim, and I no matter what. You wouldn't even need Mown if you went through with a Carthage/Greece victory. (I'm assuming my numbers are correct since -- hold on let me count:

Neo, Numbers, Scar, Hello, Mown, Jim, KoD: during the night I NK neo instead of Numbers leaving, yeah 6.

That would have been exactly as I said. The game state would have been in Number's hands. Whoever wins is his decision.


@Hello:

That's entirely up to Cato. You getting yourself modkilled is just poor taste as far as I am concerned since, by all rights, the game will end with your death no matter what unless Jim and Mown decide to go after Scar (in which case you would go after Scar too, but that doesn't seem to be the case anyway).

Oh, and let's not forget. Cato gave Zinger a warning before modkilling him. As far as I can see, this would be your first offense. Tell me, would you post screenshots again just to make sure I don't win?

;)


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:10 pm 
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Oh right, I miscounted a bit.
We were closer than I thought <_<

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:56 pm 
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Sorry HW, I'll have to modkill you. I guess that means it's game over. KoD, it's hemlock time. Mown, Jim, Scarlet, you are our winners!

Design document:
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I've already started working on my design for epistemology mafia II. Hopefully that will contain just as much absurdity, confusion, and backstabbing. Until then, please post any feedback, PMs, or fun anecdotes you might have!

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:15 pm 
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The only feedback I have is that, in regards to my role, it seems highly counterproductive to allow a situation where I could win be taken away because a player broke the rules. It would be better to flesh out such issues during development so nothing like this happens in the future.

To that end, Zinger's role seems entirely too unfun allowing him only to communicate one word per in game day.

Other than those two things, game was enjoyable given the player interactions.


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:21 pm 
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I agree that the latter was a mistake, but I have no regrets about the former. Adding another dimension of depth to the game (Not pissing off players with the ability to screw you over and nothing to lose) and encouraging people to think about the framework of the game itself is exactly what I was going for this game.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:23 pm 
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The awkward part is that I did that completely intentionally to troll KoD.
I told that I would do it to cato and scarlet beforehand so that the cato would not actualy modkill kod and the scarlet could casually point it out without makin it clear that it was intentional on my part.


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:31 pm 
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So you essentially allowed breaking of the rules to be of benefit to someone.

If that's the case, then this calls into question the way you dealt with zinger. Unlike HW, zinger didn't actually break rules. He just did something that circumvented how you intended for his role to work.

I won't lie. I'm not entirely pleased that you handled the situation in that way. But if that's how you wanted it to turn out, then so be it.


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:32 pm 
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Zinger sent a message to me by pm in the night.


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:37 pm 
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Against anyone else, I would probably find that loathsome, but since I far from condone KoD's playstyle, and the latest batch of information gives me the impression that he cheated, I guess I just have to be impressed. There is justice in this world after all. Tangentially, I used my ability on KoD's statement that he has a great sense of justice, and it responded negatively.

Zinger's posting limitation doesn't seem very fun to me, and Number's role is kind of boring. I'm also not entirely on board with Scarlet's ability, I believe some mystery should be present for each player. Finally, I would like more abilities that actually impact the game state. If KoD and Jim played more rationally, the game would have pretty much ended the moment we would team up with Rome.

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