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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:04 am 
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EBWOP:

Specifically because it calls attention to it which I imagine the killer would have done.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Dusky
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KoD: I agree PK was most likely town, but we shouldn't ignore the possibility of a vigilante or other effect that could have killed him. (Unlikely I guess since there was no other hit, but we can't be 100% certain yet).


I can't begin to express how obvious that is to point out.

But for the sake of argument, how about this. Let's not rule it out then. How do you propose going about acting on this course? Perhaps the vig would like to claim? If it was another effect that we are all unaware of, then we won't know until it happens again, will we?

I find focusing on scumhunting is the best course. But I'll be sure to keep every possibility in mind, of course.

I said that because I thought you said we can assume PK was town. I see now it was actually Aaarrrgh, though.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:52 pm 
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EBWOP:

Specifically because it calls attention to it which I imagine the killer would have done.

What calls attention to what?
You mentioning it?
Me picking it up again?
PK doing the original post?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Dusky
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I said that because I thought you said we can assume PK was town. I see now it was actually Aaarrrgh, though.


So you would have said something completely different had you known I did not say that? Regardless, doesn't change what followed (or the fact that you haven't proposed an alternate course).

Quote:
What calls attention to what?
You mentioning it?
Me picking it up again?
PK doing the original post?


I like your style. Playing coy while throwing out lots of questions as though it were not obvious. In order:

Your post calls attention to Shock.
Obviously not since I was talking about your post.

Picking it up again? Read this again:

Quote:
One thing I also meant to mention (but KoD beat me to it by now) is PK's post towards Shock,


You would have brought it up anyway had I not mentioned it in my lengthy analysis. Big difference though is, rather than fleshing it out, you simply call enough attention to it so that, maybe, others can draw their own conclusions from questioning the situation. Such as, did Shock kill PK since PK asked him about it?

PK is dead and gone. So no. More than that, had I not done an analysis, then PK's post may not have been brought up by anyone else but you in some fashion (since you had intended to bring it up).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:19 pm 
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What, exactly, are people's perspectives on everyone? I take it no one has any relevant information to share at this time, but the least people could do is share what they think about one another.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:48 pm 
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1.
Yes, I would have said something different if I had realized it wasn't you - probably nothing. I found it odd you would state it as a given, since you tend to build up logic trees, so it would be dangerous to start off with something unconfirmed. So I found it suspicous / uncharacteristic coming from you.

2.
I doubt that very much. :p

Whatever you may think, I wasn't sure what you meant, so thanks for clarifying.

Yes, I was picking it up again since you already mentioned it. And yes, I was going to bring it up anyway, because I still find it very strange. And apparently I wasn't the only one who felt it odd, so I find your reaction strange. However, I do not believe PK wanted to be killed. Which makes it weirder.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:30 pm 
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1.

So let me get this straight. Setting me aside, you wouldn't have bothered to point out the obvious had you realized someone else had mentioned it. Further, now bringing myself in from the aside, you'd see fit to bring up the obvious if it was me since it is suspect that I wouldn't mention the obvious due to logic trees.

Tell me, where, in all of this, does you offering helpful analysis come in? Because as it stands, it seems like you just want to post some things so as to maintain an appearance without actually digging in.


2.

PK wanting to be killed is not the point of his post. The post of his post was to generate discussion. That's why he not only asks Shock something that would nail down a perspective from Shock, but also why he questioned other players.

Since you mentioned my logic trees, you should have seen the logic wrt to my reaction towards you (especially given my analysis post as the context for my reaction). Summed up, someone killed PK in order to cast suspicion on Shock. That suspicion would be cast by bringing attention to the fact that PK asked Shock about killing him. If you can't see why I am reacting to you for doing this, especially given that it seems you missed the logic tree regarding this, then I can't help but feel that you are trying to do as I fleshed out.

But that is my knee-jerk reaction towards you. I feel much more confident in my suspicions of Neo (given everything) than I do you (since extrapolating the why for PKs death is just a rabbit hole that could have a rather simple explanation).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:31 pm 
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EBWOP:

You going to give your perspectives regarding everyone, or continue to just, you know, stay on the edge with your current content style?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:51 pm 
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1. Yes.
Nowhere. It wasn't meant as analysis. It was a warning to be cautious.

2. Not sure sure about that. It looks more like him expressing his boredom than trying to start discussion.

Yes, I saw that logic tree. So if I had not brought it up and you had remained the only one, you would now be super suspicious of yourself? :p

I would say you are actually highest on my list right now, but then you are also acting like you usually are, so it's hard to distinguish. I am not super suspicious of anyone at the moment so I will have to go over the old information if you insist on a list from me. But I would prefer some new input.

Therefore:

The following....

Ragnarokio wrote:
also my role lets me double the power of other people's roles or something along those lines. If that sounds like something you might want hit me up or drop a breadcrumb somewhere or something.

... is not quite true.

So I want to know from Rag - why the lie?

(And if you are wondering why I didn't share this before - I was waiting for me role to go into effect.)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:31 pm 
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1.

I think you missed my point. As it stands it looks like you're mostly just reacting to me as opposed to, you know, scumhunting. Latter part of your post aside that is.

2. He is quite clear where he expresses his boredom. He was also quite clear he was serious. You may have missed that post from him.

And, obviously, no. If I had remained the only one with intent to originally bring it up, then I would assume the killer wouldn't bother.

Quote:
I would say you are actually highest on my list right now, but then you are also acting like you usually are, so it's hard to distinguish.


And why is that because your balancing act isn't helping with nailing down your position. If my comment isn't clear, let me be crystal. You say I am highest on your list (suspicion I assume), but balance it out with saying, essentially, I'm just being myself. You and I have only had like 3 games together so if you are that confident in your perspective of me, that's quite impressive. There is just one thing I'd like to know though. Just ***what***, exactly, makes you view me as highest on your list? You didn't exactly lay out why you view me as such, unless it as the "weird" reaction you mentioned in your previous post that makes you think that way.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:35 pm 
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PK could have been targeted because someone wanted him dead.

I'm glad that you pointed this out. The dazzling logic behind this conclusion is almost as obscure and esoteric as that most infamous of syllogisms itself: "People die when they are killed."

So...perhaps you and Dusky are scum-buddies trying to influence town by passing off obvious conclusions as insightful contributions?

Or...maybe it's okay to start a new day by laying down the groundwork and establishing the facts?

Quote:
"You would have brought it up anyway had I not mentioned it in my lengthy analysis. Big difference though is, rather than fleshing it out[...]"
"I can't begin to express how obvious that is to point out."
"I find focusing on scumhunting is the best course."
"More than that, had I not done an analysis, [...]"
"[...]you're mostly just reacting to me as opposed to, you know, scumhunting."

Strangely consistent effort here by KoD to establish his scumhunting cred.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:36 am 
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Sky
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I'm glad that you pointed this out.


Perhaps it'd help if I expanded upon it so you understand why I said it in the first place. Quick aside, that is related, I assume you did mafia back on the wizard forums. If so, then PK being a target is a thing.

When I say he was targeted for death, I don't mean it in the sense that mafia just randomly picked him because they need to kill someone. I'm saying someone clearly didn't want PK around in the game long enough to become an issue to deal with. After all, PK is extremely influential, and I have experienced it first hand. Conflux Mafia is my go-to example for quite a lot involving PK.

All that being said, I don't actually have a concrete way of figuring that out. That's more in the realm of how people think, and that's hardly an exact science.

Quote:
So...perhaps you and Dusky are scum-buddies trying to influence town by passing off obvious conclusions as insightful contributions?


If we are, then we certainly work well with one another. Almost reminds me of how I worked with PK once upon a time. I miss those days.

Quote:
Or...maybe it's okay to start a new day by laying down the groundwork and establishing the facts?


Ok, let me go first.

The Sun is bright.

Quote:
Strangely consistent effort here by KoD to establish his scumhunting cred.


Something something..."maybe it's okay to start a new day by laying down the groundwork and establishing the facts?"

Serious note though, do you plan to engage me much the same way you did while I was arguing with Shock and Neo/Arrgh, then, perhaps, point at someone else for a bit like before? Or will you switch it up?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:06 am 
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Sky
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I'm glad that you pointed this out.


Perhaps it'd help if I expanded upon it so you understand why I said it in the first place.

I'm aware of the background. The point is the generosity gap between the intentions that you extend to yourself ("Allow me to expand so that you understand....") and those which you extend to others ("Such an obvious claim! Why won't you contribute?"). If any other player made the same quality and kind of claim as the one I quoted prior, you would (and did) pursue them as suddenly suspicious. If that other player were then to accuse a third party of the same crime (as, again, you just did to Dusky), you would immediately deem them inconsistent and, therefore, scummy. In fact, your argument against Neo hinged very specifically on calling out this kind of double standard.

Do you see the complication?


Quote:
The Sun is bright.

The sun, as you may recall, is not on the ground. That's skywork, old pal.


Quote:
Something something..."maybe it's okay to start a new day by laying down the groundwork and establishing the facts?"

Facts can be found impartially, without trying to position yourself as helpful. If you are town, and if you are playing reasonably well, it self-evident that you ought to be an asset. Only someone with a self- or mafia- alignment would have reasonable motivation to position themselves overtly as a 'productive contributor'. Especially in constant reference to another player.

Given, in particular, how often you post, it strikes me as odd that you are doing this sort of posturing.


Quote:
Serious note though, do you plan to engage me much the same way you did while I was arguing with Shock and Neo/Arrgh, then, perhaps, point at someone else for a bit like before?

Yes? You post more, so you get more vetting (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? and so on). And as much as the game can be amusing, I don't have the requisite 6 or 7 hours per day to spend dissecting your defenses. Plus no-one would even bother reading the monstrosity that might result if we engaged for duration.

So we have this.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:44 am 
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Sky
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Do you see the complication?


Nope. I know how I approach people despite what they may think of it.

Regarding the sun:

The obvious point being that the sun, is in fact, bright and everyone knows that (unless they are blind their whole life). The only fact there Dusky helped to establish is that, yes, PK did in fact make that post. Beyond that, it is up to interpretation (why bring it up, why focus on thinking PK would want to die as opposed to wanting to generate discussion, etc etc).

Quote:
Only someone with a self- or mafia- alignment would have reasonable motivation to position themselves overtly as a 'productive contributor'.


If you truly think that, then you should back that up with a vote. Regardless of what you think, the fact of the matter is that I am out here scumhunting while others are just sitting around not necessarily doing much. Case in point, Dusky wouldn't have said anything had she realized I wasn't the one who said that thing about PK earlier, and whether or not she would have posted about PK's post is a coin toss despite her saying she would have and it seeming like she would have (what ifs and all). To her credit though, because I am not oblivious, she did post something interesting wrt to Rag's role since she was waiting for a result.

Just so you understand what I am saying, me saying I am out here scumhunting is a matter of fact much like how the sun is bright. That's why I quoted your words to you. The comparison I make to myself when I was engaging Dusky is to illustrate what is lacking from her own effort (again, kudos to her for posting content wrt to her role).

Now, to reiterate what I said at the start, if that's what you think, then you should be backing it up with a vote since, apparently, only self or mafia aligned people would have the motivation to actively state they are a 'productive contributor'.

Quote:
Yes? You post more, so you get more vetting (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? and so on). And as much as the game can be amusing, I don't have the requisite 6 or 7 hours per day to spend dissecting your defenses. Plus no-one would even bother reading the monstrosity that might result if we engaged for duration.

So we have this.


This is nowhere near the level of the disagreement I had with Arrgh, but hey, good to know. I'll keep an eye out for the forth coming content.

And now, I am employing a different posting strategy.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:52 am 
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1.

I think you missed my point. As it stands it looks like you're mostly just reacting to me as opposed to, you know, scumhunting. Latter part of your post aside that is.

2. He is quite clear where he expresses his boredom. He was also quite clear he was serious. You may have missed that post from him.

And, obviously, no. If I had remained the only one with intent to originally bring it up, then I would assume the killer wouldn't bother.

Quote:
I would say you are actually highest on my list right now, but then you are also acting like you usually are, so it's hard to distinguish.


And why is that because your balancing act isn't helping with nailing down your position. If my comment isn't clear, let me be crystal. You say I am highest on your list (suspicion I assume), but balance it out with saying, essentially, I'm just being myself. You and I have only had like 3 games together so if you are that confident in your perspective of me, that's quite impressive. There is just one thing I'd like to know though. Just ***what***, exactly, makes you view me as highest on your list? You didn't exactly lay out why you view me as such, unless it as the "weird" reaction you mentioned in your previous post that makes you think that way.


1. Yes. So? You were the only one who had posted something I wanted to respond to, and nothing else had changed in the meantime.

2. So you are saying you do not believe I would have brought it up if you had not? Because if so, and you think anyone who does would be the killer, why not wait before doing it yourself? If you believe the killer wants to draw attention to it, surely they would do so without you pointing it out first? In either version, your 'trap' doesn't make sense. By your own logic, doesn't that make yourself even more suspicious for bringing it back? Or how is it only you and you alone are allowed to talk about it without being suspicious?


You are highest on my list as a suspicion, that is correct. I am balancing it out because I'm not completely unreasonable - I have no proof for your alignment and am more willing to with other, more substantial, things than my possibly biased view... if they become available. But you insisted on me giving a view, so there you have it.

Why 'that' confident? I don't need a lot of confidence to put someone on my suspect list... as you said, it's just a suspicion.

Oh dear, 3 games with you is worth at least 10 games with anyone else, so that means the only people I have more experience with in this game are Skystone, PK and possibly Aaarrrgh. ;)

The strange reaction is one reason. Another is that you have a motive to kill PK - I believe you are more worried about him than the average Joe in this game. Your recent remark to Skystone supports that. And third, I feel that you are 'starting a war' with anyone who dares to engage, but the content is neither helpful nor very productive. It's just going round and round. Thus, you are producing a lot of unhelpful activity that makes it harder to dig through content and actually discourages useful discussion. If I were mafia, you'd be my favourite team member. <3


Rag is currently somewhere in the middle for me - but will go either very high or very low, depending on the response I get.

But as it stands,
Vote: KoD.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:24 am 
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So far, I think KoD is just being KoD, and Dusky doesn't strike as too scummy either. I would probably have mentioned the weird PaK/Shock interaction if she hadn't, so I disagree with KoD's assessment here.

I really want to see more of both Fred and Neo before I can make much of this game, as 90% of my D1 efforts was overanalyzing their exchange which neither them ever got back to.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:40 am 
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Change won't come, unless you do something about it. My post already fleshed out the why I didn't bother waiting Dusky, and it wasn't a trap. After all, notice where my vote is placed. Hard proof, short of role information, is impossible, thus why it is important to talk. You gave a view on me, but I, still, don't see you giving views on others. The confidence was in reference to acting how I usually act, not the suspicion you have for me as you have misunderstood. Finally, your outlook wrt to me on PK is laughable since you assume I'd bring up my motive on my target rather than just avoiding bringing it up altogether. Also, you may find what I am doing as unproductive noise, but the point of the game in order to read people is to interact with them.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Yes, but I would rather talk about some role information.

I don't really have much of a view of the other players yet. Not all that much has happened. Fred a bit shady because so inactive. Shock similar, plus avoided my question towards him. Aaarrrgh seems reasonable, but then he usually does. Skystone, Rag and Neo - somewhere in the middle.

That's a bad argument. PK is known well enough that it doesn't matter whether you bring that up or not. I haven't even played with him in years and still know how dangerous he can be. (Also, whoever killed him, is definitely a kill-joy :-P) You may as well just have done so on purpose, in order to seem that way. 'Hey, look, I brought it up myself, so it cannot apply to me!"


On a different note - it would be nice to get some of the other players back involved.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:30 pm 
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Do as you like.

The argument about PK isn't bad because it isn't an argument. At this point though I'm dispensing with details as it does not matter.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:40 am 
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The lack of activity here makes me feel a new kinship with KoD. I say we lynch whoever doesn't show. :thumbsdown:


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